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Tony Likes The New Sony A90


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#1 Roderick

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 07:58 AM

Looks a fine camera - for 4.5K !!

 



#2 geedee

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:08 PM

You can get converters for Nikkors and Cannon lenses, though their functionality seems suspect, That Nikon Guy has done converter tests...



#3 rdb images

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 04:26 PM

Yes, but that price!



#4 geedee

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:58 PM

Think I read somewhere that Sony were no longer going to supply Nikon with sensors. IF TRUE how might play out in time.... Hmm..?



#5 Roderick

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:00 AM

I think so, Geedee.

T&C talked about it in one of their podcasts on the history of photography.

What Sony do is keep the latest sensor technology for their own cameras.

So, it might be a while before Nikon get their hands on a 80 - 100 Mega pixel sensor from Sony !!



#6 David Pavlich

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:33 AM

Think I read somewhere that Sony were no longer going to supply Nikon with sensors. IF TRUE how might play out in time.... Hmm..?

It would be the final coffin nail for Nikon.  They're in financial difficulty now.  They couldn't afford to up their sensor production, especially in an attempt to match Sony's quality.  I hope it doesn't happen.  I'm a good ole' DSLR person and if I were to change from Canon, it would be Nikon (and the Pentax 645Z :-) ).

 

As far as the A9 being a 1DxII killer,  meh.  Sony does not have a good service reputation and worst, their lens selection is pathetic compared to Nikon and Canon.  And to speculate that it's a D5/1DxII killer when it hasn't been out in the field and tested by other than Sony people, I'll remain highly skeptical.

 

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#7 PeterPP

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 02:34 PM

Ha Canon did say they were going to start providing their sensors to 3rd parties.

 

I tried Sony and did not stick with it, just could not stand the evf.

Sony is also good at getting into a profitable market quick and getting out just as fast when profits start to dwindle, very Ferengi of them!

I'll stick with those that have been in the game for the long haul.


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#8 JestePhotography

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:59 PM

Hrrmmm...D5 over 3200 raw 14bit onone battery charge.
Sony...maybe 700 shots. At 20frames/sec your done in 7 sec.
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#9 rospondek

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 10:34 AM

Am I the only one who find this getting a little ridiculous? We almost reached the classic 24fps of PAL video in the digital camera photo mode.
Year, two and we'll be able to literally record movies in raw. 20fps looks a little too low but just look at that gifs...
 
Figure skater
Hockey player 1
Hockey player 2
 
Would you say if it were single frame photos not video?
 
A dream for home movie makers, cause prices of the memory are constantly getting lower and lower, but we're getting a little off from the definition of photo camera. It begins to look like just 'hold the shutter button for a while and choose the right photo afterwards' or 'record video and pick the most interesting frame'.



#10 rdb images

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 10:45 AM

No, you are not the only one. The world is moving to video and drones. T&C are following that path. Still photography is now smartphones for many people. We are dinosaurs :wacko:



#11 rospondek

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 11:05 AM

I like dinosaurs... :(

 

Roar... :ph34r:



#12 TrailEx

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 01:59 PM

Saying that still photography is going away because of video sounds a lot to me like: painting going away because of the advent of photography/ film going away because of digital / rangefinders going away because of SLRs / SLRs going away because of mirrorless... just because a new technology is on the block does not mean the older stuff is going away. After all, you can't hang a video on the wall.



#13 Roderick

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 02:01 PM

or, Dinobots ?



#14 rospondek

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 02:14 PM

No, no, no TrailEx. I'm not saying that still photography is going away. I'm saying that it will become pointless to take a still frame when you can just save a couple of seconds of video (24fps is a video, you can't argue with that, so already only 4 frames less) in RAW (that's the real deal breaker or maker!) and just pick the best frame. So you still have a... still but the way you get it will become different in the coming years. Right now you could have a 120fps or even 240fps video which you could also split into frames and get this one best shot. But so far it was compressed JPEG 1080p or 720p. Now we've jumped straight into 24MP RAW files in the video.

 

I hope you know what I mean.

 

Sidenote.

A9 have 12s of continuous shooting until the buffer is full. 12s of 20fps video. An eternity when trying to catch anything.

 

A small edit.

DLSR's already lost the battle with mirrorless in the area of speed. You can't bend the physics. Mirrorless can catch frames as fast as the data transfer allows. So for now it is 20fps but nothing stops them from getting into 200fps or even 2000fps. When the technology will allow of sending 20GB/s or even 5GB/s (256 20MP photos...) from the sensor to mem card for couple of seconds it will be something incredible. But with the physical mirror getting up and down with every shot you can't go over some value. I don't know the limit but it would be rather something around 20 than 200. The speed will just smash it into pieces or just begin lose sync.

 

So the future of fast action cameras is mirrorless. And A9 just showed that.


Edited by rospondek, 28 April 2017 - 02:44 PM.


#15 TrailEx

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 12:06 PM

I will have to disagree with you on a few points. First: there are still reasons to take single frames instead of short clips and selecting the best frame. Many people will not want to go through so many frames to select one that is just marginally better than any other frame (3 seconds of video at 30 fps is 90 frames...that's a lot to go through just for one moment!). And because you're gathering so much data just for one moment, you will run out of space on your camera's storage much faster than if you were being selective with your shots (this is a big deal for long events or vacations).

Second: There is a massive trade-off with high speed cameras, and that is resolution. Sure, you can get absurd fps speeds with mirrorless-mode recording (I call it that because DSLRs have live-view mode which is identical to a mirrorless camera), but there is no way you can transfer as much data PER FRAME as you could if you had a high resolution camera with a slower fps count. This is why the A7R and 5DS both have huge megapixel counts, but very unimpressive burst speeds. For action, high burst speeds may matter a lot, but for the majority of photography, resolution is king.



#16 rospondek

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 12:41 PM

Well I said it will in the near future not it is right now. You get the good point of huge amount of files from that 'video mode' and that's true. But at this point we have no software to work through those files. We are working manually cause stills, not bursts, are more common. But when you look at Photoshop stacking mode you can clearly see that when giving some software files to work it can easily pick the sharpest one. So one problem is removed by software someone sooner or later will make.

And of course we're not talking bout vacation photos cause nobody will buy a $4k camera to make only a few shots on vacation. I'm rather saying bout pro who shoots football matches, racing or any other speed oriented events in which in 1 second a lot happens and 0.1s can be a hit or miss.

 

The second point I don't actually get. Just correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying that single frame taken with D5/D500/A9 have more MP than going into high speed 12/10/20fps mode?

I said that data transfer speed and/or buffer size is right now the barrier for very high fps. But again, right now. In barely 12 months we have a jump from 12 to 20fps in RAW.

 

We will see what we will see in 2018 but you can clearly see that speed of camera is right now the 'thing'.



#17 TrailEx

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 03:06 PM

My second point is comparing different cameras with each other. A fast camera has to have fewer megapixels than a slower camera because it can't process large files fast enough and that will always be the case. This doesn't matter for action, where speed is critical, but for all of the more leisurely forms of photography, slower cameras with more megapixels will be more appealing than these speed demons.

Personally, I'm planning to buy the 5D mark IV at some point soon, because its balance of resolution and speed really appeals to me. I'll get a nice boost to resolution with those 30 megapixels, but I will still get a decent burst speed (and I won't have to worry about processing 50 megapixel files!)

 

As far as software solving the flood of images the speed demons can produce, that's certainly true, it will make wading through hundreds of files feasible. But it will still add additional complication to just finding which shot you liked the most, and is not a viable solution for an action shooter who needs to find the correct shot immediately ‚Äčto post on social media or some similar thing. A bit of an edge case, but i'm just trying to point out that "video" style spraying-n-praying photography will not be universally appealing to all action shooters.



#18 rospondek

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 03:42 AM

OK now I know what you meant to say :)

You re right but again :D - Right now. I'm an IT and gamer so I can say with cameras is the exact the same thing as with modern games. You have 720p in steady 60fps or 1080p in steady 30fps. Until you change the hardware and voila! You're one step up. Now you've got 1080p in steady 60fps or... 4k in steady 30fps. Until you change the hardw... You get the point?

 

Right now it is a race for speed as the race for quality was finished. Next will be race for quality in this speed. When we reach a ceiling with this we will again begin the race for quality and so on, and so on.

Companies are squeezing everything they can from he technology they've got. But when something new shows up they have a blank sheet of paper to work with.

Just take a look at the simplest thing that can speed up camera. It is not sensor or mainboard or the shutter itself but memory card. You put XQD with transfer of 440MB/s and everything changes. If you can push literally 22 20MP RAW files per second you just need to work with the size of the buffer.

 

And that video mode. For pro photographers it obviously won't be 5s of shooting each time as they exactly know what might happen. They will just have this chance to hold the button longer before and after the action (so it can be a 1s maybe 1.5s which is enough) and get a lot of more shots to pick from. In hockey that speed can be a huge difference when trying to catch the goalie save. 0.1s can be over a 1m of the difference in the puck position. So difference between not yet a goal or a century after the score.

 

Right now we've got 256GB very fast memory cards. Splitting it into two slots we end's up with 0.5TB of space. Half of terabyte. 512GB of data is about - if my math is right - over 25k 20MP photos.

 

The future is bright and dark as well. I'm shooting with D500 and I can say that I barely use the highest speed mode. I used it on two events. Air show during low flyovers and on drift show, again for the close drives. I needed that speed to help me with panning. And I can say that from those 12 shots maybe two each time was sharp. But if I would try to get this action with one or two shots only, I guess I wouldn't have not a single usable shot. When shooting more calm events I tend to use slow burst with 3-4 shots to make sure that nobody on the photo will be sleeping. When shooting official events and you've got this now a moment for photographers you just have to be sure the shots will be ok, as there will be no try again, and 12fps is just too fast for blinking :)

 

I'm really wondering what will be the next move of Canon and Nikon. And by next I mean in the 2018.



#19 David Pavlich

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 09:29 AM

20 fps, fill the buffer and if you have both card slots occupied, wait for 3+ minutes to take your next shot.  Also, those 20 fps shots are compressed RAW.  If you set if for 14 bit RAW like the D5 or my slow 5DIII, the A9 does 5 fps.  My 5DIII does 5 fps, but when the buffer fills, I can still shoot, albeit a lot slower.  Not so with the Sony.  You can't shoot when the buffer is draining.

 

It's a terrific camera with a lot of the mirror less foibles improved upon.  But a 1DxII/D5 killer?  Not even close.

 

As far as video goes, we know that Sony has a problem with overheating.  Let's see how it does for someone in the Gulf South in July, not at a skating rink or gymnasium.

 

For me, the fact that you can barely see the camera with the big lenses on is a non starter.  T&C have small hands, but to make my 5DIII comfy for me, it has a battery grip on it.  And then there's that balance thing.  My camera with the venerable 70-200 f2.8 II is fairly heavy, but in hand, it feels terrific. 

 

David


No, you are not the only one. The world is moving to video and drones. T&C are following that path. Still photography is now smartphones for many people. We are dinosaurs :wacko:

 I thought you guys might enjoy this since the topic has been breached. :-)  I shot this at the Assinaboine Zoo in Winnipeg and made it really gaudy in Photomatix Pro 5.  Pretty cool animatronics.  No way to get perspective, but this beastie is true to size.

 

1srDEYF.jpg

 

David


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#20 Roderick

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 11:05 AM

Tony has published a follow up vid of the A9 (I mis-called it in the topic title), in use at a sports demo. T&C both give their opinions on it.

He has an additional correction to his comments on the buffering performance of the A9 and finally, there's a podcast on about EVF versus OVF.

As a rant amateur, it looks a great camera but at 4.5K well beyond me.  I think it points the way to the future, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TmcSHy41kE






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